Government Operations Meeting
Catskill Town Hall
March 24, 2009 6:30 pm
Attendance: Peter Markou, Supervisor
Robert Antonelli, Councilman
Lewis O’Connor, Councilman
Patrick Walsh, Councilman
Michael Smith, Councilman
Elizabeth Izzo, Councilman
Michael Sterthous, Town Council
Supervisor Markou opened the meeting. He introduced Mike Sterthous, Town Attorney. He stated that they both met with DOS. Tonight’s meeting is to discuss the changes that the Fire Companies would like to see in the Code. He stated that there has been a resignation in the Code Enforcement Office that won’t be filled as the Town has a hiring freeze.
He asked for comment from those present. The Chief of the Kiskatom Fire District, Mike Guerrieri, stated he is very happy with how things are going since the last conversation with the Supervisor. He stated there was only one incident and that was on New Year’s Eve and they came the following day. Every other incident they have always had someone respond. With this past Saturday’s incident, when they arrived, the building was pretty much a loss, and he phoned and told her not to come out that day and taped off the structure.
Chris Sutherland stated that as a follow up to Mike’s statement, the Kiskatom Fire District has not had an issue since the last conversation. With the exception of New Years, which of course it was hard getting someone to show up, they have responded to calls and that was the issue that was brought to the Town Board’s attention and that something needed to be done.
Supervisor Markou stated that the objective was to make sure there was a response but also to not call out a Code Enforcement Officer for something that can be taken care of the following day. Supervisor Markou stated of course if it is a fire and a serious one, then an Officer would need to be there and he doesn’t believe that the Code Office has a problem with that. If this seems to be working then maybe there need not be a change in the Code.
Chris stated that as far as the District is concerned the main problem was calling for a Code Officer and one not responding. He stated that the volunteer fireman show up and it isn’t paid training and they spend a lot of time invested in the communities and would like to support working together.
Supervisor Markou stated that we appreciate what you guys do. If the Town needed to pay for a Fire Department, the taxes would be sky high. Mike Sterthous has done a memo for us to clarify a few things. He stated that there is an established process where that the Fire Chief has the authority to enforce the Fire Code. He asked if they would like that to be formalized.
Mike Sterthous stated that he is trying to understand the Fire Chiefs need in circumstances where the Code Office needs to be on site and looking at the Fire Code with respect to the Fire Chiefs and their notification with serious structural damage and explosion there is an obligation to notify the Code Officer. There is no obligation for an inspector to appear immediately on site, but the inspector has an obligation to inspect the appropriate building and take measures.
The question arose are there circumstances where the Fire Department can make the obvious choice and say this building is just unsafe. For example, it is the middle of the night and the Code Officer can’t get there, can the Fire Chief make those calls and exercise the same authority that the Code Officer has to post a building for no reentry. He would like to know if that is something the Fire Chiefs would like done. If so, the Town has the authority under Town Law to expand the unsafe building provisions to give the Fire Chiefs the authority to post an unsafe building in an extremely obvious circumstance. It was the Town’s understanding that it was the belief with the Fire Districts that since they didn’t have that authority, the police wouldn’t enforce it if they were to
make the call.
Chris stated that none of the Chiefs have actually training in structural damage. If there is an instance where there is a car that crashed into a building causing structural damage, the Chief or any Officer of the District has no training to say whether the structure is safe or not. Even if there is a fire in the building, if there is structural damage, no one would have the ability to know that.
Chris stated that the person who is trained and paid to do this job should do it. The fire department will not call a person out for a nonsense call.
Mike Sterthous stated that that is what everyone seems to be saying; are there circumstances where it would help. It was the understanding of the Town Board as it was related that the Fire Department were hesitant because of personal liability with respect to making a call. Mike stated there is no personal liability.
Chris stated there are instances where you may have an irate home owner who has been told they can’t go back into the building and won’t listen to them because the have no authority, but still need to be able to call an official and that official tell the person they can’t go back into that building. What that accomplishes is the Fire Chief being allowed to do his job and also having someone come in to post the building that has ability to do that. Chris stated it isn’t the fire chief’s job to do that. It is the person being paid to do that job.
Councilman Smith stated he believes there may have been a misunderstanding. The concept is not to replace the Code Enforcement Officer (COE) with the Fire Chief. It is merely to advise you that under the law, in addition to the authority of the COE, it also give the Fire Chief similar authority. This is not to say that the COE will no longer be on site, but it is to advise that there is this portion of the law that we didn’t know about. It is not meant to be a substitute but a supplement.
Supervisor Markou asked if there would ever be an incident in which the Fire Chiefs would want the authority to make that kind of decision. For example, the house burns to the ground.
Chris stated there is still a hazardous condition with that example and that people may still want to go into the condition if they have personal belongings. Even having a Code
Officer on site may not be enough and a Peace Officer may need to be called, but it establishes everything that was done was done.
There are also situations were there may be a case of arson and where people may want to go back into the building to cover up the evidence.
Supervisor Markou asked who makes the determination if it is a suspected arson. It was stated it is the Chief and then the Cause and Origin Team would be called. Mike Sterthous asked then if it would help if they had the authority to extend a red tag right away and this way no one can go back in. He stated that everyone has the same goal. It is to prevent people from going back into a building to make matters worse. Whether that is covering up for arson or to collect something that they need. No one wants to see the public getting hurt.
Councilman O’Connor stated that at an arson call no one leaves the scene and a Cause and Origination Team comes in and the Chief works with them. They are on sight until the cause is determined. What Councilman O’Connor stated is that they are talking about a structure fire or when a car runs into a house and they take care of the situation and return to the firehouse.
Mike Sterthous stated he understands that. The Code Officer would do that too, come out and red tag and go home too. It was his understanding that the fear was that if the fire department says “stay out it isn’t safe”; there is no authority, so it can’t be backed up. This is the way to have that authority so that it can be enforced as what the Code Officer would do if he/she there.
Chris stated that can be flipped where the Code Enforcement Officer could say they would not be able to get there and to have the Chief make the determination and the Officer would come in the morning to check it out. He stated that as a Commissioner he has an issue having a Chief make that decision and leaving the District liable for their decision.
Mike Sterthous stated that the District would not be liable in carrying out their duties. Chris stated the Officer wouldn’t, but the District would. Mike concurred. Chris stated the District takes the perspective to be safe rather than sorry and to have the Code Enforcement Officer, who is a paid official and who is trained to make that decision, instead of a volunteer who spends the majority of their life doing something else, do it.
Mike Sterthous stated the District should not be held when everyone is doing their job, but it isn’t saying that people aren’t going to sue.
Councilman O’Connor stated that the Code Enforcement Office is working. He stated that when Volunteer Firemen are trained, they are instructed to call the Code Enforcement Officer. Mike Sterthous stated that is correct, that is what they are supposed to do, that is what the law states. No one is suggesting that they don’t notify the Code Office.
Mike Sterthous stated that what the Town was trying to accomplish was a way to help the Fireman with what is a perceived understanding that we can’t do it because the
Police won’t enforce it. No one is saying don’t call, call all the time.
Chris stated that the Board has helped because they have made the Code Enforcer come when needed.
Supervisor Markou stated that there is an element of frustration because we need to know what to call someone for. You can’t call the Code Enforcement Officer for crap, literally crap.
Mike Guerrieri stated that is the question he has, what we call for and what does the Town consider they need to be called for. For example a primary heating source which in the winter if something happens, the house becomes unlivable. If there is an electrical fire and they tear the wall down and shut the breaker off, the Code Officer is called.
He stated this is where the grey area comes in. He still sees the lack in the small things. He stated that the structure that burns is clear and obvious but the small things, like when they need to tear the wall down and turn the breakers off in an electrical fire and call the Code Officer and they don’t come until the next day, that is where there is an issue. He stated that when they leave and make the phone call to the inspector, they feel that they are covered.
Kevin Lennon stated that with the situation on hand, it is overblown. The previous Code Officers had dedicated their support to the Fire Chiefs and the Fire Districts and until this came up, is the possibility of the problem being the location of where the she lives and the proximity to the calls. Also, it doesn’t only involve structure fires, electrical fires or chimney fires. The calls pertain to anything on the property because of the laws that have been passed to protect Firefighters. It could be as simple as a pile of wood and if we get called to the scene and that pile is there and a Firefighter has tripped on it, it now becomes a Code Enforcement issue. Anything that causes a tripping hazard to a Firefighter, Code Enforcement has to be notified. We as Chiefs, take a lot of
the nuisance calls out because we don’t want to tie up the Town or the Code Enforcer. However, when certain calls need to be taken care of we need an Officer on the scene, especially with structure fires involving arson. The law states that they should be there for the full investigation so they can fill out a proper report. Kevin stated that if we are going to go into this detail then it should be investigated further. Any person in the Fire District, if they notify the Chief of any incident with a building involving Code Enforcement, they have now put the District on liability until the Code Enforcement Officer is notified. For example, there is a building in Palenville now that is being retrofitted that has asbestos on the side of the shingles. I was notified and stated that I couldn’t do anything until they remove them. Once removed, then I can tell the Code Enforcement Office and then it is their responsibility to do what they
need to do.
Kevin stated that since everything has come to light, it has gotten better. We need to work as a team and define some of the grey areas that everyone has an issue with.
Kevin stated that the Greene County Fire Advisory Board and the Greene County Coordinator, who has checked into certain laws, has stated that it clearly states that Code Enforcement needs to be there.
Mike Sterthous stated that it is not that clearly stated. The Code Enforcement Office has the responsibility for carrying out and enforcing the Fire Code and the Building Code but it doesn’t state to have to be there at any particular time. With that being said though, no one is trying to avoid someone’s obligation. The goal of everyone here was to make the residents of this Town a lot safer. It was a suggestion of a way to help in a circumstance with those particular calls where it may not be practical for the Code Officer to get there yet there is a situation that needs to be addressed right now. If there is the ability for the Fire Chiefs to slap a tag there that can be enforced by the Police for the public safety.
Chris stated if someone does place a tag at a scene they can be called back to ask why they placed the tag. Mike Sterthous stated yes and Chris said if they are not properly trained to place that tag there that can be put to question. Mike Sterthous stated who would question your ability to try to make someone safe.
Mike Sterthous stated that maybe there is no way to make the perfect fix and this is a way of suggesting to help everyone do their job. He understands that things are better and that is great with both the Fire Districts side of discretion in the calls that they make and on the Code’s side as to coming out when needed.
Supervisor Markou stated that he gets every memo and fire call that the Code Office goes to so he knows what they have done and where they have been. He agrees that it has gotten better and we can continue to work to improve it even more. He stressed again that there has been a resignation and there is a hiring freeze on so we are one full time person short. The Board and he will discuss whether this person will be replaced; however, it will not be a full time slot because the Town can’t afford it. The budget constraints keep looking worse and worse and that 2010 will be even worse than now.
Also, he stressed that we are not adversaries and we are here to do the best job we can with the resources we have available. He believes if all use common sense it will probably get even better.
A gentleman in attendance stated it would be nice if the Board looked at the situation on their end. He stated some people cannot take personal phone calls at work and when they return home from work, Town Hall is closed. He stated the best time to get the facts of the situation is when it is occurring. Volunteer Fireman try to do the good deed 95% of the time. We are asking that if we do our jobs, then everyone else should do theirs.
Chris also stated that sometimes code violations are a source of revenue too. If a Code Officer comes to a scene and sees other violations they are citable and can make the Town money.
Mike Guerrieri stated that we are volunteers in that community and the people within the community look for them to help and we are not helping them by saying to them they need to stay away it is a dangerous situation or if there is a violation, then they immediately turn around and hate us.
Supervisor Markou stated that when the Code Enforcer shows up they will hate the Code Officer too and the general response was, they are getting paid.
He stated that this kind of dialogue helps. Since there is an improvement we will keep moving in that direction. He stated we will keep them informed about the vacancy. He also stated that his office is open and to call if there is something that you want to talk about.
Councilman O’Connor stated the only district that wasn’t present was Leeds.
Supervisor Markou talked about the resignation in the Code Office. It takes effect on March 31st. It gives us a unique opportunity to go back to part time help. The next exam is May 31st.
Councilman Smith asked if Linda should be in on this discussion. Supervisor Markou stated that he has had a discussion with Linda and she wants a replacement but have not talked about whether it is full time or part time. He states his preference is part time.
Councilman Antonelli stated that when the position started it was part time and feels that we should not have a full time person.
Councilman O’Connor stated that we should hire someone who is already trained. We have trained two people and they are both gone. She resigned because she has a job with the County.
Councilman Smith asked if the position should be filled at all. Supervisor Markou stated that the problem is we have one part time person who is only available during the day and that can’t be changed because he is subject to the American with Disabilities Act and he does a hell of job for the time he is here. Because of his disability he can only make so much money and he doesn’t cost us in benefits and we get a lot in return for our money. If he can’t go out then the full burden is on Linda and that is unfair. If we have a part timer who is local it would be ideal. The person can be paid extra to go out to the call.
Councilman O’Connor stated there is also other COE. We can set a basic call plan and work it like mutual aid.
Supervisor Markou stated he always thought of that as an option for the Town. Maybe we can go to the Village’s COE and state if we need someone for a call and ours isn’t available, would that person be willing to go out for fee.
Councilman Antonelli stated there are also fire inspections that need to be done and sign inspections, which is now on the backburner. There are other things that one person can’t do anymore. Even though we are down we still don’t need a full time person.
Councilman O’Connor stated we should advertise for someone who is trained. Mike Sterthous asked if there are any other municipalities who have delegated fire companies to do the building inspections. Councilman O’Connor stated no.
Councilman Walsh stated we should advertise for a local person. Councilman Antonelli stated that a lot of local people don’t want the job because they don’t want the headaches. Councilman Walsh stated he understands but it should be a requirement if possible. Councilman Antonelli stated we won’t get anyone and that that was a problem with Denise. She would go shopping and people would approach her and yell at her.
Councilman Walsh stated that if we really want someone to respond to a fire, if the person is out of the area, it will be almost impossible. Councilman Antonelli stated that also, the person who took the job should understand that that is part of the job.
Councilman O’Connor stated that if we look to Cairo or Athens then that would be close.
Supervisor Markou wanted all to know that Denise took a lot of abuse and at some point in time you look at the job and see if the benefits out way the hassle of the job.
We will need to continue this discussion and keep the dialogue open with the Fire Chiefs.
Supervisor Markou stated he has not yet received a Quad contract.
Councilman Antonelli stated that about two weeks ago the cameras were not being displayed on the monitor. He had Liz call Scott Alarm. Joe came down and checked it out and said someone is pulling the plug. With that, it was recommended that a camera be placed because it was the least expensive idea. The camera was placed and now everyone on the second floor is upset because they state it is an invasion of privacy. He had Liz contact Ronni who stated it is not an invasion of privacy. Councilman Antonelli had told everyone on the second floor that the door is supposed to be locked because it houses all the communication information.
Supervisor Markou stated it is not an invasion of privacy. The Town has a right to protect the communication information.
Mike Sterthous stated he has a draft copy of the subdivision regulations. There is a lot and it is under review.
Supervisor Markou stated that Dan Howard is resigning tonight as Chairman of the Planning Board for a family matter. He will still be a member but feels that he cannot at this time give the job the time it needs.
With no further comment a motion to adjourn the meeting was made by Councilman Antonelli and seconded by Councilman Smith.
Meeting ended at 7:25 pm.
Respectfully submitted,
Elizabeth Izzo
Town Clerk
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